Retomando este tema, esto es lo que averiguo Gaston en USA
dongaston70 escribió:Hello again Joe!
As usual, I turn towards you for info on HTs...
This time, for three IHCs, all are here in Argentina, and brought from Europe around 1947 (as all "Argentine" HTs do).
In a farm and owned privately:
M5 - 5057 - ORD - 15812 (with roller)
M5 - 4850 - ORD - 15605 (with winch)
In the Army´s Museum (outskirts of Buenos Aires):
M5 - 1764 - ORD - 12519 (I don´t remember if it is a winch or roller model...)
An AACVM (our MV collectors´association) member, Hugo Bianucci, is building up a database for HTs which found their way to our country, your info will be gladly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!
Cheers from Argentina
Gaston
Joe DeMarco escribió:Hi Gaston,
Thanks for the report. The data is very helpful. Plugging in the numbers, it would certainly appear that there is a mathematical relationship between the Ord Number & the MFRS Number. Based on the info you reported, & one example from Belgium, the Ord Number & the MFRS Number are related by the number 10755. That is, if you add 10755 to a known good MFRS Number, it will give you the Ord Serial Number. Or you can subtract 10755 from the Ord Number to come up with the MFRS Number. I've looked at a couple I-H's where the frame stamping was so light, that it was impossible to get a good read of the whole thing, so that 10755 formula might help some owners figure out their numbers in cases where there is no dataplate.
I think the first production M5 would have been assigned Ord S/N 11259, MFRS Number 504, & USA 4029247. ( I would have expected that might have had MFRs No 1 or 2, but nothing is ever real logical with this number stuff.)
I-H made 4625 M5s from Dec, 1942 through Sept 1943. I think the last M5 would have been Ord 15883, MFRS 5128, USA 4033871. The ones you reported with Ord S/Ns 15605, 15796 & 15812 would have been produced in Sept.
I'm interpolating that the first M5A1 was Ord 15884. No one has reported any surviving M5A1s so far, but I would guess that 15884 would have an MFRs No of M5A1 - 5129, or perhaps like Diamond T, they started the sequence over at 1 (M5A1 - 1) when they swithed from M5s to M5A1s?
The other two you reported 12519 & 12562 would have been accepted in April, 1943. I have in my notes that 12519 was remanufactured by Truscon Steel. Is there any evidence that any of the others Were? I assume the I-Hs had to be remanufactured because they had been used by troops training in the US. Truscon redid 1799 M5s in 1944, & another 1408 in 1945. I doubt if any of the ones done in 1945 were sent overseas during WW II, but could have been sent as MDAP in the 1950s.
>An AACVM (our MV collectors´association) member, Hugo Bianucci, is building up a database for HTs which found their way to our country
Hope you will keep us updated about his findings.
Great info, thanks again, Gaston!
Joe
Joe DeMarco escribió:
Hi Gaston,
>I would need you to confirm the USA registration numbers for the last three HTs for which I sent you the serial numbers, just to remind you:
M5 - 5057 - ORD - 15812 (with roller)
M5 - 4850 - ORD - 15605 (with winch)
M5 - 1764 - ORD - 12519
For M5 / M5A1s with Ord Serial Numbers 11259 thru 18777, I'm 95% sure that the key number is 4017988. If you add that to the Ord S/N, it will give you the USA Number assigned. Thus Ord 12519 = 12519 + 4017988 = USA 4030507.
Keep in mind that while these units would have had USA Numbers painted on the hoods when they were accepted at I-H, that would have been overpainted & replaced with a British War Department Number when the tracks were assigned as Lend Lease.
>M5A1-833-ORD-16218
That's a fine looking half-track, but it has me baffled a little. Any possibility of a typo? Does that info come from an auction list, or was it actually recorded from the dataplate or frame of the HT?
If from a list, it's too bad there are no other M5A1s, since it would be good to find another set of M5A1 numbers to compare.
If you have a list, could you provide a few examples of M9A1 numbers?
Joe
Joe DeMarco escribió:Hi Gaston,
That is fantastic!
I try to look for patterns in the numbers, & it's immediately apparent from your list that the Ord Serial Number of the M9A1s is exactly 500 lower than the Manufacturer's Serial Number.
Only a few I-H tracks have been reported on G503. One member reported he has M9A1 - 2198 - ORD 1698, which fits in perfectly. A couple guys posted photos of the frame stamping, but they couldn't read the whole thing, so now that we know the 500 thing, maybe that will help them determine their numbers accurately?
Thanks to your valuable contribution, I'm pretty sure the M9A1s go like this...
Production Order T-4660 for 3433 units, all accepted as M9A1s, 50% roller, 50% winch
Ord S/N 3, MFRS S/N 503, USA 4067586 thru Ord S/N 3435, MFRS S/N 3935, USA 4071018
The mathematical relationship between the Ord S/N & the USA Number is 4067583. That is, if you add that to the Ord S/N, it gives the Registration Number assigned. Unfortunately, there is no mathematical correlation between those numbers & the British WD Numbers on Lend Lease vehicles. I think most or all of your tracks would have had Brit Numbers painted on when they got there. That said, I do have a few historical listings that provided only the USA Number. Here's an example...
4036337 M5A1 Vehicle Return, 1/6 FA Regt/ 6 South African AD, 8/31/44, Italy
Perhaps you got a few like that?
>The M5A1 serial number I provided was taken from the actual auction listing. I believe the numbers to be accurate, as the >Army double checks each of them from their archives and actual stampings on the HTs front frame rails. I have no reason to >doubt as to its accuracy.
Ok, good. Casualty, deficiency & transfer lists are great research tools, particularly when they provide both the Ord & USA Numbers together. I've found that long lists like that often contain about 10% typos is all.
It would be helpful to be able to record a few more examples to confirm, but assuming M5A1-833-ORD-16218 is accurate, we might posit that the difference between the Ord S/N & the MFRS S/N on the M5A1s is 15385. Thus I think the first M5A1 would have been Ord S/N 15884, MFRS S/N 499. Maybe there are a few more M5A1s out there?
Please keep us updated about your group's research efforts concerning Argentinian HTs. An original dataplate generally has the builder's name on it, & some of us would be interested in seeing an example of an I-H dataplate, if you can find a few.
Many thanks, Gaston!
Joe
Resumen Gaston!!!